“People supporting “Israel”, the Zionist entity enacting genocide on Palestinians, are identical to people supporting the USSR, which eliminated Nazism and saved tens of millions of lives from extermination”
“People supporting “Israel”, the Zionist entity enacting genocide on Palestinians, are identical to “People supporting “Russia”, the Fascist entity enacting genocide on Ukranians
Does the NZ in your username stand for NaZi?
Russia is, in fact, not enacting genocide on Ukrainians. It’s carrying out an invasion which we can condemn, but calling every conflict a genocide is actually a form of genocide denial, because it minimizes the horrors of actual genocides.
https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/cf5c3756-f722-4d0e-b7de-4e3f925d001d.jpeg
Russia is, in fact, enacting genocide in Ukraine.
What Russia is doing:
> Tens of thousands of children are being abducted, stripped of their identity, and taught to hate their homeland
https://thewalrus.ca/ukrainian-children/
Definition of Genocide:
> Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
The source for the tens of thousands of Ukrainian children being abducted is, unsurprisingly, the Ukrainian government. The Russian government makes claims about Ethnic Russians being cleansed in Donbas and I don’t take those accusations as true either, until confirmed by independent journalistic reports. You’d do well to do a more critical analysis of wartime propaganda by countries involved in wars.
The ICC has an arrest warrant on Putin for these abductions.
Putin has used a presidential decree to streamline the process of Ukrainian children being made Russian.
Here’s your Independent Journalistic Report:
“It happens, for example, that they go with their parents from the occupied territories through Russia to some third countries. Russians can detain parents, arrest, put them in prison, just take their child to their boarding school. Like, go where you wanted, but your child will stay with us. There are cases when Russians enter a house somewhere in the occupied territory, the child tells them that he lives with his mother, who just went to the store or for water, but they take this child, actually kidnap him, and he finds himself in Russia. I am not talking about the so-called evacuation of children’s boarding institutions from the occupied territories to Russia - this is a separate pain, “says Daria Kasyanova.
But sure, keep telling the world it’s only Ukrainian propaganda.
I cannot read in Ukrainian, but if the article contains independent verification of the tens of thousands figure, I’d love to see that section translated. What you quoted are anecdotal events, not evidence of tens of thousands, which is what I’m questioning. I’m not doubting some war crimes are being carried out, of course thats the case, I’m just saying they’re not nearly widespread enough to constitute genocide, as evidenced by the lack of support by essentially any country to such claims.
You can leave the conversation if you want, but the figure of “tens of thousands” literally comes from the Ukrainian government. Per the Wikipedia article of the Abductions:
Ukrainian authorities have verified the identities of over 19,000 abducted children, compiling and actively updating the data as part of an online platform: “Children of War”
You are free to believe this figure if you want, but you’ll also be called on it when you use it to justify baseless claims of genocide which minimize what’s happening in Palestine.
Nice try but the USSR sided with the Nazis remember. They dont get any credit.
I’m gonna paste a comment that I wrote some time ago responding to the whole “Soviets sided with the Nazis” lie that is often propagated on Lemmy. Feel free to respond to it, I’d love to engage with you in its contents:
The only country who offered to start a collective offensive against the Nazis and to uphold the defense agreement with Czechoslovakia as an alternative to the Munich Betrayal was the USSR. From that Wikipedia article: “The Soviet Union announced its willingness to come to Czechoslovakia’s assistance, provided the Red Army would be able to cross Polish and Romanian territory; both countries refused.” Poland could have literally been saved from Nazi invasion if France and itself had agreed to start a war together against Nazi Germany, but they didn’t want to. By the logic of “invading Poland” being akin to Nazi collaboration, Poland was as imperialist as the Nazis.
As a Spaniard leftist it’s so infuriating when the Soviet Union, the ONLY country in 1936 which actively fought fascism in Europe by sending weapons, tanks and aviation to my homeland in the other side of the continent in the Spanish civil war against fascism, is accused of appeasing the fascists. The Soviets weren’t dumb, they knew the danger and threat of Nazism and worked for the entire decade of the 1930s under the Litvinov Doctrine of Collective Security to enter mutual defense agreements with England, France and Poland, which all refused because they were convinced that the Nazis would honor their own stated purpose of invading the communists in the East. The Soviets went as far as to offer ONE MILLION troops to France (Archive link against paywall) together with tanks, artillery and aviation in 1939 in exchange for a mutual defense agreement, which the French didn’t agree to because of the stated reason. Just from THIS evidence, the Soviets were by far the most antifascist country in Europe throughout the 1930s, you literally won’t find any other country doing any remotely similar efforts to fight Nazism. If you do, please provide evidence.
The invasion of “Poland” is also severely misconstrued. The Soviets didn’t invade what we think of nowadays when we say Poland. They invaded overwhelmingly Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian lands that Poland had previously invaded in 1919. Poland in 1938, a year before the invasion:
https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/fe692bb7-3692-4b42-8f9a-5ef924d0c18d.png
“Polish” territories invaded by the USSR in 1939:
https://reddthat.com/pictrs/image/72fbfc8f-ada7-478e-8996-48f6d6f156f2.jpeg
The Soviets invaded famously Polish cities such as Lviv (sixth most populous city in modern Ukraine), Pinsk (important city in western Belarus) and Vilnius (capital of freaking modern Lithuania). They only invaded a small chunk of what you’d consider Poland nowadays, and the rest of lands were actually liberated from Polish occupation and returned to the Ukrainian, Belarusian and Lithuanian socialist republics. Hopefully you understand the importance of giving Ukrainians back their lands and sovereignty?
Additionally, the Soviets didn’t invade Poland together with the Nazis, they invaded a bit more than two weeks after the Nazi invasion, at a time when the Polish government had already exiled itself and there was no Polish administration. The meaning of this, is that all lands not occupied by Soviet troops, would have been occupied by Nazis. There was no alternative. Polish troops did not resist Soviet occupation but they did resist Nazi invasion. The Soviet occupation effectively protected millions of Slavic peoples like Poles, Ukrainians and Belarusians from the stated aim of Nazis of genociding the Slavic peoples all the way to the Urals.
All in all, my conclusion is: the Soviets were fully aware of the dangers of Nazism and fought against it earlier than anyone (Spanish civil war), spent the entire 30s pushing for an anti-Nazi mutual defence agreement which was refused by France, England and Poland, tried to honour the existing mutual defense agreement with Czechoslovakia which France rejected and Poland didn’t allow (Romania neither but they were fascists so that’s a given), and offered to send a million troops to France’s border with Germany to destroy Nazism but weren’t allowed to do so. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was a tool of postponing the war in a period in which the USSR, a very young country with only 10 years of industrialization behind it since the first 5-year plan in 1929, was growing at a 10% GDP per year rate and needed every moment it could get. I can and do criticise decisions such as the invasion of Finland, but ultimately even the western leaders at the time seem to generally agree with my interpretation:
“In those days the Soviet Government had grave reason to fear that they would be left one-on-one to face the Nazi fury. Stalin took measures which no free democracy could regard otherwise than with distaste. Yet I never doubted myself that his cardinal aim had been to hold the German armies off from Russia for as long as might be” (Paraphrased from Churchill’s December 1944 remarks in the House of Commons.)
“It would be unwise to assume Stalin approves of Hitler’s aggression. Probably the Soviet Government has merely sought a delaying tactic, not wanting to be the next victim. They will have a rude awakening, but they think, at least for now, they can keep the wolf from the door” Franklin D. Roosevelt (President of the United States, 1933–1945), from Harold L. Ickes’s diary entries, early September 1939. Ickes’s diaries are published as The Secret Diary of Harold Ickes.
“One must suppose that the Soviet Government, seeing no immediate prospect of real support from outside, decided to make its own arrangements for self‑defence, however unpalatable such an agreement might appear. We in this House cannot be astonished that a government acting solely on grounds of power politics should take that course” Neville Chamberlain House of Commons Statement, August 24, 1939 (one day after pact’s signing)
I’d love to hear your thoughts on this
The communists spent the decade prior to World War II trying to form an anti-Nazi coalition force, such as the Anglo-French-Soviet Alliance which was pitched by the communists and rejected by the British and French. The communists hated the Nazis from the beginning, as the Nazi party rose to prominence by killing communists and labor organizers, cemented bourgeois rule, and was violently racist and imperialist, while the communists opposed all of that.
When the many talks of alliances with the west all fell short, the Soviets reluctantly agreed to sign a non-agression pact, in order to delay the coming war that everyone knew was happening soon. Throughout the last decade, Britain, France, and other western countries had formed pacts with Nazi Germany, such as the Four-Power Pact, the German-French-Non-Agression Pact, and more. Molotov-Ribbentrop was unique among the non-agression pacts with Nazi Germany in that it was right on the eve of war, and was the first between the USSR and Nazi Germany. It was a last resort, when the west was content from the beginning with working alongside Hitler.
Harry Truman, in 1941 in front of the Senate, stated:
If we see that Germany is winning we ought to help Russia, and if Russia is winning we ought to help Germany, and that way let them kill as many as possible, although I don’t want to see Hitler victorious under any circumstances.
Not only that, but it was the Soviet Union that was responsible for 4/5ths of total Nazi deaths, and winning the war against the Nazis. The Soviet Union did not agree to invade Poland with the Nazis, it was about spheres of influence and red lines the Nazis should not cross in Poland. When the USSR went into Poland, it stayed mostly to areas Poland had invaded and annexed a few decades prior. Should the Soviets have let Poland get entirely taken over by the Nazis, standing idle? The West made it clear that they were never going to help anyone against the Nazis until it was their turn to be targeted.
The communists were responsible for 80% of the total Nazi casualties. The communists beat the Nazis.
Lemmy.ml, Hexbear.net, and Lemmygrad.ml are all extremely anti-Zionist. Further, dbzer0 defederated from Lemmygrad.ml, and is only federated with Lemmy.ml and Hexbear.net. What are you trying to say?
Nobody would ever accuse you people of defending Jews so it can’t be that you are Zionists. Its about the simping for authoritarian regimes.
Communists absolutely defend Jewish peoples, Zionism is anti-semitic, especially anti-Yiddish. We also don’t “simp for authoritarian regimes,” we support socialist systems where the working classes hold the authority in society, rather than capitalists. None of this is “simping,” I support worker-run structures because it’s more equitable and democratic.
In no way shape or form Ukraine is a genocide. By using that term for both Palestine and Ukraine you are just demeaning the word, and actually helping the propaganda against Palestine.
Ukraine is defending its sovereignty, and it is experiencing a national aggression by Russia, but what Israel is doing to Gaza is in a different sphere.
So the person who believes Soviet documentation, will turn around and not believe Ukrainian documentation. How convenient this makes your genocide denial.
You even link to the site showing where you can browse the tens of thousands of missing Ukrainian children, and see the ones who have been returned. You can find testimonials from those returned children, but still you believe Russian war time propaganda over that.
The utter arrogance and hate to call these unjustified claims when they are backed up by evidence is astounding, but one should expect no less from someone so ideologically driven to manipulate and distort to fit their narrative.
You even mention the site showing where you can browse
Yes, I can browse unconfirmed pictures, not very useful
You can go find testimonials from those returned children
Returned? How? Wasn’t Russia kidnapping them? Why would they return children kidnapped with genocidal intent?
Again, I’m not doubting the existence of war crimes and of some children being kidnapped, I’m doubting the propagandistic numbers about it until I have independent journalistic confirmation of the scope of it. Doubting Nayirah’s Testimony was the correct choice 30 years ago.
What Russia is doing:
> Tens of thousands of children are being abducted, stripped of their identity, and taught to hate their homeland
https://thewalrus.ca/ukrainian-children/
Definition of Genocide:
> Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
https://www.un.org/en/genocide-prevention/definition
Idk where you got that those sites don’t defend Jews. I feel very supported in those places, and the moderation on Hexbear at least takes antisemitism seriously(I can’t say for the other two because I’m on there less often, but I’m yet to hear anything that would make me doubt that they defend their Jewish users as well)
You’re on a .ml account so I’m by default assuming you’re untrustworthy. If you cant see why anyone might get that then you might be blind. I’m sure I could go dig up some examples but then you’d have won by wasting my time proving something that is already obvious.
“you are on a ***** account so I will assume shit”
dumbest logic i have read today, instead of bringing up a real example you say this? you are wasting my time writing this reply right now but that’s good because i’m on company time
well i guess now i will assume every piefed user is a fed /s
Jesus Christ. Westerners really are the most propagandized people on earth.
we support socialist systems where the working classes hold the authority in society, rather than capitalists.
I feel like, despite this being explained every time, people still think “dictatorship of the proletariat” is a bad thing because of the word “dictatorship”…
Yep, or they realize it means democratic control by the proletariat, dictatorship against capitalists and fascists, as Marx intended, but then think socialist countries all misunderstood Marx and established capitalist-style dictatorships of the few. This is a deeply chauvanist attitude though, that assumes people in socialist countries too stupid to understand basic Marxist concepts (despite having higher functional literacy rates than the US Empire).
“The source for the crime is, unsurprisingly, the victim, the criminal is denying any wrongdoing” hmmm
Do you really think States under war have no reason to do atrocity propaganda? And you’re mischaracterizing what I said, I denied similar accusations made by Russia
I love a wall of text as much as the next autist but im going to be a low effort in my response because I fucking hate having this conversation with tankies because its always so bad faith.
First of all I need to clear up that I dont think USSR sided with the Nazi’s because they supported Nazi ideology. I’m saying they dont get any credit for joining the war or fighting against hilter because they choose to side with him and support his war effort and only joined because they were backstabbed.
Ok so to sum up you’re point you’re saying that the USSR did the most to fight against nazi germany because they sold weapons to the anti facists in the spanish civil war and one of their westernized diplomats proposed a collective security agreement and they offered to send 1 million troops to france(this would never happen) and said they would support chzek despite having no land border. Then you give 4 paragraphs coping about soviet invasions. No mention of the
You’re ignoring historical context surrounding the USSR and then acting surprised at other countries reactions. I dont think any of what you’ve said really negates them signing an agreement with Hilter to divide up the east and provide support to Hitler’s war effort.
Meaningless coming from someone whos entire ideology is to support a uniparty with complete narrative control that executes anyone who thinks different.
I’m the bad faithed one? You don’t engage with the fact that soviet-occupied “Poland” was actually Ukraine, Belarus and Poland, you reduce the 10 years of collective security proposals under the Litvinov doctrine to “an agreement that was never gonna happen anyway”, and you minimize the soviet war contributions in my own country against fascism 3 years before even WW2 started. You also completely ignore the fact that the English, French and Americans perfectly understood the Molotov Ribbentrop for what it was: buying time against Nazi invasion because they had been left alone by western Europe.
You’re low effort in your response not because “I’m bad faith”, you’re low effort because you don’t have shit to say to historical evidence contradicting your western-sponsored anticommunism.
Who is invading who exactly?
“Burglar files counter-claim arguing that the owner of the house they’re stealing from is actually stealing from the burglar”
No its because this person is lying. They dont honestly believe in a worker run democracy. Its just a palatable phrase they use to appear less extreme.
They support a political class with total control benevolently dishing out to the working population.
What makes you think this way?
Ukraine from 2014 to 2022 was shelling eastern Ukraine (majority Russian ethnic territories) without any Russian invasion because two regions declared independence. This is the part where Russia is claiming ethnic cleansing and it uses as casus belli. I don’t believe the genocide accusations because not everything bad is a genocide. We can condemn the invasion without making up genocides.
????
Least incoherent shitlib
Nope, not what I believe at all, and the fact that you have to invent my beliefs proves you can’t actually argue against my real ones.
what eighty years of anticommunist propaganda does to a mf
