Conversation

This all stems from a fundamental misunderstanding that no one seems to be interested in clearing up.

The original post that brought the allegations of feddit being zionist to more people is this one, and the one that originated the allegations is this one.

The feddit.org admin inside explicitly states that the removal of the comment being talked about by the original thread is not about pro-zionism or anti-semitism.

Now what does the person claim it is about? That seems to be majorly ignored. Let me rephrase it in my own words.

In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot if people still denying it or not believing it. One of those rules is that no statement may be made that makes national socialism seem better than it was. So something you can’t say for example is “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!”. This seems extremely weird from an outside (the person saying it’s) perspective, because obviously, yes, the tactics Trump uses are directly borrowed from national socialism.

However, if you look at national socialism as a whole, it was much worse than just ICE. Millions were killed etc.

Now, the person who makes the statement “Trump’s ICE is national socialism!” is obviously using it to express that ICE is terrible. But if you want to look at it from a certain way (which German law likes to do) it’s also saying that they’re roughly equal, which, since Trump and ICE is currently not quite at the level of full national socialism, would minimize the severity of national socialism by bringing it “down” to the same level as the Trump regime and ICE.

Obviously, from a perspective of a person today, this seems ridiculous, because the current threat is ICE and not national socialism, so who cares about “how national socialism is talked about exactly”?! Isn’t it much more important to make sure that ICE is taken appropriately seriously? And you would of course be right. But the stance is that the ends do not justify the means, and it is very much possible to fight against ICE without comparing it to the whole of national socialism.

This is what is being talked about by the mods/admins. It has nothing to do with either anti-semitism or anti-zionism.

Now, if you say something like “Trump’s ICE resembles early national socialism!”, that is a completely fine statement to make in the eyes of the law. You are actually comparing ICE to what it actually is, “early [stages of] national socialism”, and not “national socialism [in general]“.

Feelings are running high, even as I type these words, I can imagine it. But please try to think about this stance for a moment and try to see that it is not Trump ICE apologist, or trying to minimize what ICE is doing. It is simply trying to pay heed to two important issues at the same time, of which one has much more immediacy and current real impact on people’s lives than the other.

I used this ICE example on purpose because it is even nearer than the genocide in Gaza. And because it is farther away from “full national socialism style genocide”. I hope I could make the thinking in this example clear, and I hope at least a modicum of rationality can be attributed to this.

And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.

Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany. And thus you could argue that comparing the situation in Gaza to national socialism is minimizing the severity of national socialism. And thus the same kind of argument applies as in the previous example with ICE, it just is even less understandable for a person who didn’t know/understand/agree with this argument.

I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.

In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it, because there were unfortunately a lot of people still denying it or not believing it.

True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers. In their logic, following the law in Germany is equivalent to following direct orders from the Gestapo. Maybe you just don’t want to get arrested and put in jail for running a niche community on the internet, but that’s not even an argument to them.

Some people in that db0 thread even suggested feddit.org should just shut down completely, which is ridiculous. Every country must’ve laws you don’t agree with, but you don’t run and hide because of that.

This “we vs. them” attitude is exactly what’s been criticized about MAGA all of the time, but doing it in this case is perfectly legitimate, somehow. I don’t know what kind of brain gymnastics you’ll have to do to come to a conclusion like this.

It’s just exhausting trying to talk to these people. I say let them shut down their community and hang out in their radicalized bubble. Good riddance.

what [Netenyahu’s Israel is] doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.

Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively?

I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.

As to the German law:
* Is that applicable here on Lemmy? *Is it up to the mods to interpret German law and apply it?

the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany

Last I checked, the genocidal state of Israel is actually using weapons to vaporize Palestinians, thus leaving not even a trace of a war crime. Would you like to amend your statement?

Such an excellent thread for filling out my block list

In Germany, after national socialism, we have very strict rules on how you are allowed to talk about it,

ah yes the “im just following orders” defence the favorite of the saurkrauts.

I wonder why people compared ICE to the gestapo? thinkin-lenin

the Gestapo (Secret State Police) actively deported people, playing a central role in the systematic roundup and deportation of Jews and other perceived enemies of the Nazi regime to ghettos and extermination camps during the Holocaust

The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful.

Warsaw Ghetto Uprising jews actually did fought back against being exterminated by the Nazis, or do you see them as violent extremist too?

Very difficult to say this for sure. Some of the acts we’ve seen are on the same level, frankly. And how could you possibly measure this, objectively? I don’t think this can be argued meaningfully, and so should be removed from your argument.

I was attacked by people from dbzer0 and called “pro genocide” for saying that, but: There is of course a way to measure and compare violent acts. There is a whole academic field called “Comparative Genocide Studies” which, as you can guess, studies genocides, their differences, how they were committed and is trying to compare them or to categorize them. There are also people doing this from a military point of view studying how wars are fought and so on. That is something you can do - but not here on Lemmy.

As to the German law: Is that applicable here on Lemmy? Is it up to the mods to interpret German law and apply it?

Yes? Feddit.org is an austrian/german site and therefore has to operate under local rules. The fediverse is not some lawless cyberspace thing. It has servers running in datacenters and those servers have to account for local laws. It has people funding those servers and those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.

“In Germany after National Socialism we have all been brainwashed to support genocide and Zioism and have to legally support our government sending weapons to a genocide because we like the previous one so much. Also we have a Gestapo which enforces this just like how we did in WW2”.

I’m basically sure I’ll be condemned as a zionist now, or whatever, go ahead.

Literally putting on the classic Nazi disclaimer

Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?

Very cool of dbzer0.

You put the L in Liberal.

Notice how the ragebait, communication destroying comments and got’chas are coming from a handful of users in this thread (Cowbee, Riverside, etc.) Ask yourself why they would want to separate the left and who benefits from that.

Can you elaborate on how I’m doing “ragebait” or posting “commubicatuon destroying comments and got’chas?” I oppose Zionism, I think that’s fairly clear.

True. But a lot of people on the whole Fediverse seem to be very narrow-minded black-and-white thinkers.

“Black and white thinking” is when you don’t like people who defend their defense of genocide by saying “it’s the law”?

discuss.tchncs.de

Sometimes I wonder if German instances are a social experiment and our reactions are being recorded and analyzed.

You are literally the most reasonable communicator on the fediverse, lmao.

Thanks! What’s funny is I’ve seen these “edit responses” before, people don’t expect to be questioned on statements they make about others by the people in question, I suppose.

Can you explain why Germans have learned absolutely nothing from the Holocaust?

America and Western Europe were more interested in fighting the cold war, so they rehabilitated most of the nazis and put them in charge of everything.

In 1957, 77% of the [West German Justice Ministry’s] senior officials were former Nazis, which, according to the study, was a higher proportion that during Hitler’s Third Reich government, which existed from 1933 to 1945.

This is only one small example, the practice was widespread in West German as well as NATO generally.

Ask yourself why they would want to separate the left

Oh, i’m sorry, zionists are leftists now?

Zionism is a settler-colonial ideology which its goal is establishing the state of Israel on the Palestinian’s occupied land.

“If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel. That is natural: we have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? […] They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country. Why should they accept that?” — David Ben-Gurion

“You are being invited to help make history. It doesn’t involve Africa, but a piece of Asia Minor; not Englishmen but Jews… How, then, do I happen to turn to you since this is an out-of-the-way matter for you? How indeed? Because it is something colonial.” — Theodore Herzl draft to Cecil Rhodes

Zionism (the belief that Israel has a right to exist) is fundamentally incompatible with leftism. Fighting with zionists isn’t left-wing infighting, it’s punching right.

and who benefits from that.

Leftists do. movements do not need zionist liberals muddying and diluting it until it’s meaningless.

You’re not a leftist.

Notice how the criticisms are based on a fundamental lie: that feddit.org is a zionist instance. Without that lie all of the agitators “arguments” crumble to the sad leftist-dividing dust that they are.

“They’re not zionist, they just defend Israel’s right to exist.”

They are zionists and so are you. Death to “Israel” and death to the Federal Republic of Germany.

Defending pissrael is zionism. Anything short of “Death to pissrael” is zionism. Sorry I don’t make the rules, I merely enforce them.

The soyjack “I was just following orders” vs the chad

Sorry I don’t make the rules, I merely enforce them.

I don’t think we can expect commenter to be as nuanced as an academic specializing in genocides.

On the legal front, it is to me morally obvious that that comment was pretty measured and deleting it was fucked. If you claim to do a fucked thing for legal reason, I think it’s fair to demand evidence that you are under legal duress. Is there a history of feddit specifically or german fedi sites.in general being hammered for “antisemitic” comments?

The answer to that would determines how much I am pissed at german authorities for misapplying the law or at feddit admins for being cowards.

cops under a DotB vs cops under a DotP

If you allow people defending a supermasist ideology like zionism than you are a zionist bar simple as that

Notice how the criticisms are based on a fundamental lie: that feddit.org is a zionist instance.

Well, I think this is where the “Nazi Bar” metaphor comes into play. I think its defensible for db0 to clearly say, and they had a debate, provided evidence, etc.., that feddit.org clearly has a Zionist problem. We could argue with their process, evidence etc.. but we can’t disagree that they did have a process, provided evidence, etc..

Calling for death to nations (and their civilians) is a call for genocide. I hope non-extremists can see that.

I mean isn’t that the point? Feddit is turning a blind eye to this when it comes from a specific, narrow ideological group. The argument being made is that Feddit is either defending or turning a blind eye to one specific group of people who are ideological advocates for genocide because they do it on behalf of Israel.

And to be clear and I’ve said this elsewhere. I don’t think you leave a Nazi (in this metaphor, Zionists) bar to the Nazis. If you find out that a group of Nazi’s walked into the bar you are in, you collect your group of friends at your table, and you walk over and start a fight. Don’t give them an inch.

I think the argument here is that if you don’t want to be known as a instance supporting genocide and fascism, you have some work to do.

If you are a coward then just don’t talk at all sbout Gaza and don’t defend zionism

There is no black and white in settler colonialism

You know full well that this is not relevant to the point I was making, and seems like arguing in bad faith. If so, then please reconsider being kind and rational.

If you are genuine, then: I hoped it was very obvious that I know that some of what Israel is doing is as bad, and worse than what happened in the Holocaust. That does not mean that the scale is the same, or that the situation leading up to this is the same. While very clear parallels can be seen, and the direction this is going is very clear, it is simply false that the genocide in Gaza is even in the same order of magnitude as the Holocaust. Is that enough amendment?

If you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I said, I really don’t know what I could say to convince you. It seems you’re not truly listening to me and trying to understand. I can just hope eventually you will see that there is no point to us fighting, and I wish you well.

The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful.

“The Jews never fought back” is certainly an incredible take, especially from a German.

In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.

Do you not understand colonialism?

If you rely on the German standard, you’d never be able to call a genocide a genocide until its fully executed.

Which obviously supports those committing the genocide.

I think people attacking you as “pro-genocide” is exactly as reasonable as the German standard disallowing comparison of Nazism, which is funny.

The existence of a field of study which purports to compare genocide doesn’t validate your assertion that Israel is less evil than the third Reich. I still don’t think you can make this point.

The German law around speech comparing anything to Nazism sounds complex and subtle. I would argue that it’s a matter for the courts to decide, rather than for unqualified moderators to overcomply in advance.

If you really see support of genocide and zionism in what I said, I really don’t know what I could say to convince you. It seems you’re not truly listening to me and trying to understand.

Oh no, people are not trying to understand your subtle and nuanced argument of “Palestinian genocide and the Holocaust are different because the Jews never fought back”.

those people are people living in their home country have to obey local laws.

You have a moral responsibility to disobey moral injustices, even when, actually, especially when they are codified into law. If you rely on the German standard you have no functional mechanism to communicate that a genocide as as bad as the Holocaust is occurring. Which is obviously ridiculous, and you should disobey that law.

You are trying to reduce my argument to one dimension that “sounds” reasonable, while ignoring things like it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel. And you’re going to say it is the prerogative of Palestinians to fight back, and again I would completely agree with you. It just doesn’t make much sense to argue with you, so I’m going to stop.

Have you really not seen me multiple times calling the genocide in Gaza a genocide? The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there, you really can’t see it?

“The Jews never fought back” is not what I said. Again, you intentionally try to misinterpret what I said. I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.

Do you not understand colonialism?

I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.

The ability to recognize the genocide in Gaza as a genocide is very much there

Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong and doing Holocaust exceptionalism in defense of liberal zionists, lmao.

And now let’s go back to the original zionist accusations. The original comment was removed because of the last part of it, which said “Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany”. As much as people don’t want to see it, the situation in Gaza is actually different than the situation in Nazi Germany. The Jewish population in Nazi Germany never launched rockets at Germans, in fact, jewish people in Nazi Germany were exceptionally peaceful. In Gaza, there is genocide happening, there is a power differential, and Palestinians need to fight back, but there is simply no rational denying that it’s not the same as the genocide in Nazi Germany.

The original comment was good and correct. Supporting one settler state committing genocide is actually the same as supporting another.

You are trying to reduce my argument to one dimension that “sounds” reasonable, while ignoring things like it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel.

How surprising, you’re doing Hasbara. The charter was irrelevant soon after it was written, Hamas changed many time very quickly throughout its history, and the charter you’re referring to was in fact literally replaced with a new one in 2017. You are a zionist.

And you’re going to say it is the prerogative of Palestinians to fight back, and again I would completely agree with you.

No, you wouldn’t and you didn’t. The trick of “fighting back is their right but they’re doing it wrong” isn’t fooling anyone.

ah yes the “im just following orders” defence the favorite of the saurkrauts

What I said had nothing to do with that. Anyway, I can’t keep up with all the stuff people are saying to me, so please excuse if I don’t elaborate further.

jews actually did fought back against being exterminated by the Nazis

What I mean was in the time before the Holocaust even started.

Only while saying the people resisting it are also wrong

I’ve never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying.

The original comment was good and correct

I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I’m sorry about that.

What I mean was in the time before the Holocaust even started.

Just to check, when do you think “Israelis” started committing genocide against Palestinians?

Very difficult to say this for sure.

I agree, but the death toll for example is a potential way to measure it. But again, I never said that the genocide in Gaza should happen, in fact I want it to be stopped by almost any means necessary, like not a counter-genocide.

Is that applicable here on Lemmy?

I’m not providing any commentary about what should be done, I was just hoping to help people understand that feddit.org is not filled or run by Zionists.

Roughly around 1919 with the British support of an Israeli state.

it literally being in the charter of Hamas to destroy all Jewish people in Israel

You mean the 1988 one written 50 years ago that immediately became irrelevant just a few years after it was written? That is not a good argument, please.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Hamas_charter

While the 1988 Hamas Charter had been widely criticized for its antisemitism, the 2017 document removed the antisemitic language and stated that Hamas’ fight was not with Jews as such because of their religion but with the “Zionist project.“When asked, Hamas leaders explained that “The original charter has now become a historical document and part of an earlier stage in our evolution. It will remain in the movement’s bookshelf as a record of our past.”

I’ve never said that the people resisting their genocide were wrong to do it. You’re intentionally misinterpreting what I’m saying.

No, I’m really not. You’re all over this thread repeating hasbara lies about Hamas and misrepresenting the history of “Israel” in comparison to the history of the Holocaust (you correctly include the Warsaw Ghetto in the Holocaust but appear to think the Nakba isn’t relevant).

You might actually have convinced yourself that this is principled and nuanced anti-zionism, but it’s not. You are being a zionist and I urge you to reconsider your positions on this.

I don’t disagree with you, that’s why I tried to explain the nuance, but apparently I failed, I’m sorry about that.

You didn’t fail to explain what you mean, I understood that. Where you failed is that you are, knowingly or unknowingly, manufacturing nuance that does not exist.

Look at the response in context of Feddit. Its not a critique of you, per se, its a critique of the German law/ idealogical approach. Lets suggest, in your words, a full “national socialist” genocide is at least possible in this day and age. The world did no know the full extent of Germany’s action until well into the process.

If we rely on the logic of the German approach, we wouldn’t be able to call the thing a thing until its too late. The point being made is that if you wait long enough to be able to a full historical analysis, you’ve effectively become an apologist for genocide on the basis of a lack of evidence.

And I would argue that Israels actions over the previous 80 years are extremely comparable to what the National Socialists did in Germany, and in some ways, even more disgusting. Germany ran concentration camps for around 12 years. Israel has been running them for almost 80. Germany treated it as a war of extermination. Israel is running it as a war of extermination.

The only difference is that we have the opportunity to stop Israel in its tracks, now, as its becomes clear the Israelies are not going to stop until the entire Palestinian population is eliminated. Disallowing or diminishing comparisons between the most famous historical genocide and the ongoing Israeli genocide in Palestine supports genocide

And when was Hamas founded? By comparing those two dates, you can see that it’s actually the same as the Warsaw Ghetto uprising.

The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing. I.e. genocide. All genocide needs to be stopped at almost any cost. I don’t have any capacity to argue further, so many people are saying things.

I’m completely aware that this originally started with the zionist invasion of palestine in the early 20th century.

From your other comment next to this one…

I was specifically talking about the time before the Holocaust even started, there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.

Do you not see how you’re not being consistent?

The thing is called a thing and should be called a thing.

Ok. Well thats not what you are doing and its not what German law or Feddit is doing. People are trying to call a thing a thing, and are getting push back saying “You can’t call this thing that thing”

I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that. You do not truly know anymore who started, the only thing I personally know is that the same way that a genocide against Palestinians needs to be stopped, so does a call for genocide against Israelis. Of course, due to other countries (including Germany) support of Israel, Palestine needs special protection and the immediate ceasing of all support to Israel.

What you do not see is that we don’t truly disagree, I’m just trying to explain one of the multi-faceted thought patterns that go on in some people’s brains. Multiple different concepts can co-exist at the same time, and do not necessarily contradict each other, like saying that the genocide in gaza needs to be stopped immediately and the genocide in Gaza and in the Holocaust not being the literal same.

You again ignore that the “thing” I talk about is a “genocide”, which is what is happening, and it is one of the worst things humans can do to each other and needs to be stopped at all costs.

You insist on not understanding, I’m done.

I think a poll or just reporting, blocking, and ignoring them would be better than “leave your comments below”. I’m exhausted and confused just trying to decipher them.

The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself and has a profile picture after an dictator who did several genocides! And this guy is attacking others for “defense of genocide”! Great invention this internet thingy!

You insist on not trying to understand, I’m done.

No, its that you continue to insist that your “nuance” isn’t apoligism.

You insist on not trying to understand, I’m done.

This isn’t a train station. No need to announce your departure. Everyone here can read your words and judge you for themselves, and they are, and they see you apologizing for genocide. You should take the time of your departure to mediate on why that might be.

I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that.

Incorrect, and also hasbara.

What you do not see is that we don’t truly disagree

We do disagree. Your entire view of the so-called “conflict” is based on zionist lies, which is why you can never meaningfully oppose it no matter how much you think you do.

Obviously what is happening in Gaza is terrible and Israel needs to be condemned, but what they’re doing is still not on the same level of evil as Nazi Germany.

As someone with a relative who died in a Nazi death camp, I resoundingly disagree. The scale may be relatively smaller, given that they’re attempting to steal a much smaller area of land for their Lebensraum, but the level of evil is the same.

The internet is awesome. You can discuss genocides with someone who named himself after an dictator who did several genocides! Who has a picture of this dictactor in his profile! And this guy is attacking others for “defense of genocide”! Great invention this internet thingy!

We have found the most historically literate feddit user.

These people are bad for removing themselves from contact with genocide supporters

I’ll show them. I’m going to remove myself from contact from them.

this is so historically illiterate it’s laughable. What genocides did lenin commit lmao

It’s pretty gross behavior.

Yep, I agree.

Look up what the term ‘order of magnitude’ means and please absorb the -fact- that you are wrong in this statement.

Look they’re self reporting right here!

For example the genocide on the don cossacks:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization

and of course the whole Red Terror which killed several millions:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Terror

Are you really denying that Lenin killed several millions of people?

https://feddit.org/pictrs/image/022a2caa-1ea6-4324-a9f4-7d9a6ee5cbb4.webp

Oh, yeah, “They removed my comment where I’m just an asshole and telling people to kill themselves, they are such zionists 😭”

The fuck is wrong with you guys?

“Rules are important! I’m a good German, I follow the rules.” -German soldier in the 1940s

lemmy.ml has multiple posts today about how everyone who disagrees with them is nazi or pedophiles.

Yeah, the good old “You are a Nazi for following rules”-thing. Because everyone who follows rules does so indly, except for oneself.

One may well ask: “How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?” The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that “an unjust law is no law at all.”

• Martin Luther King Jr. in Birmingham Jail 1963

This thread even 18 hrs later:

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/d6646513-62df-42ba-8d07-267381de1a83.gif

How would you categorize the community rules “Be nice to each other”, “Don’t insult each other” and “Don’t call for violence”? Just or unjust, dair or unfair, sensible or dumb, expedient or not?

How would you categorize the feddit.org admin using a snark comm get people to send DM harrassment to users who upvoted the feddit.org defederation thread?

is that ‘being nice’?

Why the whataboutism? Please answer my question and do not answer with whataboutism or the discussion is over.

you started the whataboutism with ‘what about the community rules”

please answer my question and do not answer with whataboutism or the discussion is over.

Are you talking about this one? 🤔

https://lemmy.ml/pictrs/image/5d327fef-5f61-4cfa-8924-0a5830def15f.jpeg

Link to the post post

When I was new to Lemmy, I wanted to get memes, and the migration tool suggested the memes on lemmy.ml. It didn’t take long before my first comment disagreeing with some tankie over USSR and chinese communism got removed for “Civility”. It was a normal, non-insulting comment in expectance of a normal conversation.
You cannot criticise China’s treatment of the Uyghurs without getting your comments removed and almost everyone with a .ml-account I’ve encountered denied the crimea and genocides of USSR, the Russian Federation and China, and this denial is enforced by mods and admins.
I’m really wondering what db0-admins think about defeserating lemmy.ml though.

Wrong. I criticised the db0-governance post for delivering supposed evidence for feddit.org-admins’ supposed zionism that actually only were evidence for db0-users behaving like assholes.

And since you can only deflect and not actually argue, this discussion is over. In case you wonder why I won’t answer furher comments by you, I can’t see them anymore since I place you on my blocklist. People like you are the reason I’m really considering placing lemmy.ml as an instance on that list. Well done.

Bye, your contributions to the conversation won’t be missed

“Rules are important! I’m a good German, I follow the rules.” -German soldier in the 1940s

Zionists are not on the left

Death to America

It has created some funny interactions, the best part is that it still has one more day left in the all/active tab

Meanwhile Zionists perpetuate real violence on real people by the hundreds of thousands. God forbid people online be mad at them.

Yeah add me to that list too. I don’t like talking to fascists.

The German government is sending 30% the weapons to mass murder Palestinians in a concentration camp. This denial of full German government support for genocide is why nobody takes Germans seriously when they claim to care about the Holocaust. Take a long hard look at this image and see what you can take away from it

https://lemmy.world/pictrs/image/f6eefaad-0a99-43c5-8037-8dfa5d864bf5.jpeg

And there it is the Zionist blood libel against Palestinians and repeat of German genocide propaganda.

People like them have nothing to offer but deflection and whataboutisms. Blocking them allows the propaganda to spread and influence others uncontested. Best method is to downvote their posts but don’t engage with them, they feed off of the attention they get.

That isn’t how I’m seeing any of this.

And what does that have to do with people removing peoples posts calling for more violence?

You mean the outdated charter that has since been replaced to clarify opposition to the settler colonial state, rather than Jews as a whole?

So many comments jesus. I ain’t reading all that. Free Palestine and Death to Israel.

they issue is that the lemmy.ml is the lemmy devs instance… and the devs are tankies themselves.

Oooh, they downvoted you with both of their accounts.

And Death to Germany!

Well, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Whether they are grounded in reality is another matter. Every case of “Zionist censorship” listed in the dbzer0 post boils down to one of their members calling to kill the other side or calling someone Zionist because they don’t support killing the other side.

Genocide is when you kill a bunch of people, apparently.

palestine-heart isntrael

This user is suspected to have relations to Russo-Chinese state media and Marxist sympathies, please report any suspicious behavior to https://cia.gov/

What genocides did Lenin commit? How was he a “dictator?” Do you have any idea what you’re talking about, or are you just saying things like this to avoid needing to have an actual point?

Yes.

I’m just looking at what is here. Not the drama on a instance I barely notice.

Na, I don’t have a lot of spoons for this anymore. I don’t want to read that, because I’m a little impulsive sometimes and have a hard time not to engage, and I need the energy for people I may actually convince. Not just in political questions, just generally. There are more important things than infighting on the internet.

So you are commenting on a post about a post you didn’t even read?

Don’t be butthurt but I really don’t care about the drama. Drama gets blocked here and I’ve seen plenty dodgy stuff from both instances. No saints on either side.

The people are calling for Palestinian self-defense against the apartheid state intent on their genocide. The two aren’t comparable forms of violence.

Well, I wouldn’t mind if then you didn’t criticize my take on a situation you didn’t even try to comprehend.

There is a difference between calling for self-defense, calling for killings and supporting Hamas killing civilians.

Nothing wrong with my comprehension.

Incorrect and also hasbara. This is an ahistorical orientalist fabrication that is designed to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of “Israel”.

Wait… Are you saying that Israelis became the “nomad nation” and moved from country to country just for shits and giggles? That they left Israel because they wanted to, and not because the Persians persecuted them?

Your entire view of the so-called “conflict” is based on zionist lies

Could you elaborate? Does that mean that Israelis shoot rockets at themselves?

Oh, yeah, that’s so much better. “We will keep fighting until we eliminate a country” is such a peaceful and lovable sentiment!

We all get why Germany has strong laws against antisemitism, given its history. That doesn’t mean German support towards Israel need to be unconditional, which is what has happened, in effect. The left, the right and the center in Germany all seem to agree on one thing… unconditional support for Israel.

“German history and our responsibility arising from the Holocaust make it our duty to stand up for the existence and security of the State of Israel.” – Olaf Scholz, October 2024.

You are basically taking the same line as Scholz, despite the fact Israel has proven itself to be a fascist ethnostate that seems intent on genociding all its neighbours. Anyone who is still committed to justifying or both-sidesing the Israeli genocide of Palestinians needs a smack in the head imo.

I do accept the fact you have acknowledged the genocide. But then why are you so hung up about folk making equivalences between fascist genocidal Israelis and fascist genocidal Nazis? It’s about the most obvious comparison one could make. Arguing that it’s a false equivalence is simply another way to excuse the atrocities committed by Israel. Statements like “Israel has done a few bad things, but they are nowhere near as bad as the Nazis, so you mustn’t make a direct comparison” are nothing more than genocide apologia. Just because Israel has done a “smaller” genocide (so far) doesn’t mean shit to me. Zionist ideology is just as reprehensible as Nazi ideology.

More than 75,000 Palestinians were killed in the first 15 months of Israel’s military assault in Gaza, a figure far higher than the 49,000 deaths local health officials announced at the time, says a new study by The Lancet Global Health medical journal. The peer-reviewed study, published on Wednesday, found that women, children and the elderly comprised some 56.2% of violent deaths in Gaza during that period, a composition that it said roughly aligned with reporting by Gaza’s health ministry. […]

“The combined evidence suggests that, as of Jan 5, 2025, 3–4% of the population of the Gaza Strip had been killed violently and there have been a substantial number of non-violent deaths caused indirectly by the conflict,” the authors wrote. Source

Because Palestinians have the legal right under UN law to struggle against their occupiers by any means necessary, including armed struggle, while Israel, as an occupier, has no right to “self defense.” - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism_as_settler_colonialism - Philosophy prof. Hans-Georg Moeller: 📺 Guilt Pride: A German Vanity Project Conquering the World

I didn’t notice c/europe was zionists. I just typed israel, I see highly (legitimately) upvoted posts against it.

I’m sure you can find some unsavory stuff, but I haven’t stumbled upon it once.

On the other hand I’ve been confronted to authoritarian bootlickers too many times from ml. If you don’t defederate from them too then you’re not being consistent.

https://feddit.org/comment/11617986

You mean the colony established over the legitimate Palestinian State? This is like saying it’s bad to fight for the abolition of the Reichskommissariats.

Israel is currently the most violent, fascist and genocidal nation state in the Middle East (if you exclude the US military bases there).

Thank you for recognizing statesia my ego gets a little wonky if it goes unnoticed

You know that was hasbara, right? Previously:

conflation of state and people that Hamass ideology clearly makes

A Document of General Principles and Policies

by largely targeting and slaughtering civilians in their homes

That is not what happened. That is what Western media said happened. - The Intercept: - Netanyahus War on Truth - The Story Behind the New York Times October 7 Expos� - Al Jazeera: Why did Israel deploy Hannibal Directive, allowing killing of own citizens? - Electronic Intifada: How Israel killed hundreds of its own people on 7 October

 
>If Hamas wants to dismantle Israeli oppression through activism, negotiations, and political reform great.

1. It has tried to do that for decades. The most recent significant attempt was Great March of Return, wherein the IDF slaughtered Gazans.

I’m just wondering how long the mods or world admins let it go. Usually they kill things like this quickly unless it’s something attacking ml

Dude, how can you be any more based

You should read the examples give by db0. They are using the term Zionist for anyone with nuanced takes. The accusations are almost slanderous and feddit was not asked for their side before starting the vote.

That’s the way they roll. They do be a bunch of weird counts but it’s their right.

Of course you may speak somewhat neutrally on National Socialism and even compare current politics to them. But you must be able to prove your point or show your work. Denial and making light based on “this is just my opinion, mate” is unacceptable.

Depending on the crime the burden of proof lies on the accused. This is fine.

That’s patently false.

Not every land grab is lebensraum. Sure. Wars for territorial expansion are not intended to be legal. But you need more nuance.

Well that’s disappointing.

You can even get prosecuted for things you do outside of Germany if police gets their hands on you.

Most of the time this does not happen due to lack of public interest. Nobody wants to lock you up due to some bat shit post you made on the Internet. Unless it had a very wide reach and was particularly deplorable. And linked to your real identity. And there was an arrest warrant. And you entered German jurisdiction or an allies jurisdiction who extradites for that crime.

This only happens in the thoughts of paranoid people though.

Imagine thinking you need a “nuanced take” on whether genocide is bad.

No, not every land grab is a Lebensraum, but these are by Israel’s many own admissions over several generations. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Israel - Inside ‘Greater Israel’: myths and truths behind the long-time Zionist fantasy - Israel continues to push for “Greater Israel” amid massacres in the West Bank and Gaza

Is this stuff censored in Germany?

Hmm yes, very nice.

Now let’s see your take on the Russia Ukraine war.

Very unfortunate for you that your modlog is publicly viewable

Do you really not understand that Hamas did not exist before the genocide of Palestinians started? The situations are exactly identical, except the “Israelis” are also colonizers. Not a single acre of the land they live on is rightfully theirs. It’s all stolen.

>Note 2: If you think feddit.org deserves a full instance ban instead, or have alternative suggestions, then please leave your comments below. If enough people think that’s the better option, then we’ll do that instead.

Proceeds to lock the post after making it.

Could you elaborate? Does that mean that Israelis shoot rockets at themselves?

Yes, if you read the comment you’re replying to…

I do understand what you mean, however the attempted genocide that christians, jews and muslims are doing to each other is much older than any of that.

Incorrect and also hasbara. This is an ahistorical orientalist fabrication that is designed to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of “Israel”.

The post was open for the entire voting period.

The favorite word of Germans is apparently “nuance”, but I think it’s a close competition with “untermensch” and “herrenvolk”.

That’s just called “being nice”, tankie.

Not every land grab is lebensraum.

It’s literally settler colonialism, German. The same as your lebensraum.

Cool non-answer. What part of civility rules typical across lemmy such as dbzer0’s own > Don’t be shitty. i.e. telling people to kill themselves, or bad-jacketing is bannable.

allow exceptions for unhinged promotion of violence against commenters whom we unreasonably allege or “bad-jacket” as Zionist? Uncivil denunciations of Zionism are uncivil; therefore, moderators enforcing civility must prosecute. No evidence was given the moderators penalize civil denunciations of Zionism. Enforcing civility doesn’t imply Zionism.

This is basic logic. Denying basic logic implies staggering stupidity or dishonesty.

Lol, imagine trying to argue that Cowbee is rage baiting and destroying communications. The most serious case of projection I’ve even seen

Go back to reddit

Uhuh. Funny how none of that seems to apply to comparing Russia or Hamas to the Nazis….

“We need to be nuanced about genocide!”

Yeah, you’re a Zionist

Not every land grab is lebensraum.

They are when you are exterminating the people living there

I want to clarify that I was being extremely sarcastic in that comment. I’m mocking the anti-“tankie” user for going from “follow the rules and be nice” to “downvote people with your alt account”.

Ah, my bad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization

You want an example?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De-Cossackization

And we need to be honest here: Lenin war not a good person. He personally ordered the murder of thousands of people and the Red Terror is not “simply killing people”.

I followed your link. It shows a comment you made, yet with another link to a comment by Emopunker@feddit.org. And you claim that they harass people. The comment by Emopunker shows a screenshot where three usernames are listed that share similarities. Emopunker says that they have the suspicion that the shown users are the same person with alt accounts.

In conclusion: I wonder whether you forgot to attach some context, because based on this alone I don’t see anything that support your claims.

The regular: too much internet, not enough grass between fingers.

Time to defederate dbzer0?

Zionists eat shit.

I’ll just block you instead

Oh no, how will dbzer0 survive without access to a constant supply of condescending Finnish cryptofascist opinions? bye

This is like saying it’s bad to fight for the abolition of the Reichskommissariats.

They’re a genocide defender from the Finnish instance, they might actually think that.

You mean the colony established over the legitimate Palestinian State?

1. Palestinian State didn’t exist before the very same resolution that created Israel. It was the Palestinian Region of the Ottoman Empire. It’s like calling people living in the Alps “Alpians” and stating that “the French and the Swiss colonised the legitimate Alpian State”.
2. Israelites, just like Palestinians, have a historical claim to that territory. If you firmly believe that they should not have any part of it - where would you place them?

I love how you guys call me a “genocide defender” after I’ve stated so many times that Netanyahu and everybody responsible for the genocide should be tried and eliminated. :D

You’re exactly like MAGA - a fundamentalist who believes that if someone isn’t 100% committed to ALL tenets of your cause, they’re a traitor and an enemy. This tribalism is pathetic and a cancer on our society.

Thank you for quoting the exact part that I asked you to elaborate on.

Just so I get it right: you’re of the belief that the entire “Iran gets equipment from russia, sends it to Hamas, Hezbollah, Houthi, with the money to up operations and cause chaos, and Hamas/Hezbollah use these resources to strike at random targets in Israel”, something that is confirmed by intelligence material from the entirety of NATO, India, Pakistan, Emirates, Saudis, Bahrain, Qatar, Jordan, Yemen, Oman, Egypt, and Sudan - ALL of that is fabricated designed “to obscure the very clear and obvious colonial nature of ‘Israel’”?

If we rely on the logic of the German approach, we wouldn’t be able to call the thing a thing until its too late. The point being made is that if you wait long enough to be able to a full historical analysis, you’ve effectively become an apologist for genocide on the basis of a lack of evidence.

Untrue: it’s a matter of accurate wording. “The evidence so far indicates they’re potentially…” or “For all we know, they could be…” gets the same idea across without violating integrity concerning degree of certainty or knowledge. > Providing material support to Israel is no different from providing material support to Nazi Germany

Technically & literally false: they are different. A lawyer can challenge the falsehood. > Providing material support to Israel is bad for the same reasons providing material support to any genocidal state including Nazi Germany is bad

Providing material support to Israel is providing material support to a genocidal state

Providing material support to Israel is as bad as providing material support to a feebler Nazi Germany

All technically correct or opinion.

Claiming shit is true before we have the evidence to justify it is invalid & another way to state you’re claiming shit you don’t actually know: you’re spouting shit. Spouting shit is fine in cool countries that respect liberty. However, Germany is not one of them. Spouting the wrong shit in Germany is legally risky: apparently, the law parses words with autistic literalism.

By punishing verbal laziness, the law doesn’t necessarily “support genocide”. It is coercing you to stop being a slob & express yourself with (annoying?) accuracy.

Are you able to read? I refuted the idea that this is a thousand year conflict by pointing out that it is a colonial occupation (which began in the last 100 years). None of the bullshit you’re spewing has anything to do with that.

I love how you guys call me a “genocide defender” after I’ve stated so many times that Netanyahu and everybody responsible for the genocide should be tried and eliminated. :D

You think this is because of Netanyahu and that this genocide is a recent thing? This genocide is inherent to the state of “Israel”, which is a settler colony. If you believe “Israel” should exist, you are a genocide defender.

You’re exactly like MAGA - a fundamentalist who believes that if someone isn’t 100% committed to ALL tenets of your cause, they’re a traitor and an enemy. This tribalism is pathetic and a cancer on our society.

No, I just think people who think colonialism is acceptable are enemies. Because they are.

I refuted the idea that this is a thousand year conflict

Ah, OK, so you’re just refuting the idea that Israelites have lived there, in that very same region, for thousands of years, for which we have archaeological and historical data? All of that is a hoax? Like, an Egyptian dude was going “LOL, let’s write those guys in, hilarity will ensue 3000 years later”?

None of the bullshit you’re spewing has anything to do with that.

Wow, maybe if you elaborated on what you meant, like I asked, then I’d understand what you meant better? Weird how communication works, eh?

You think this is because of Netanyahu and that this genocide is a recent thing?

Yes, the genocide is a recent thing considering the Palestinian population has been steadily growing, while their culture was not in any danger of being wiped out.

This genocide is inherent to the state of “Israel”, which is a settler colony. If you believe “Israel” should exist, you are a genocide defender.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they’re out to get you right after they’ve finished eating their newborn babies. WTF are you smoking,

If you believe “Israel” should exist, you are a genocide defender.

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of what “genocide” means.

Funnily enough - YOU are a proponent of genocide, if you believe the Israelites should have their nationality removed. That’s literally one of the defining aspects of a genocide.

No, I just think people who think colonialism is acceptable are enemies. Because they are.

I don’t defend colonialism >as defined in real life<. It’s not what you consider to be “colonialism”, but that’s just because you’re a fundamentalist and an extremist.

✊🏽

The Palestinian people are a people who have lived in that region for hundreds of years, just because they were previously occupied by Ottomans doesn’t mean there’s no material basis for the nation of Palestine being present in the region. The Jews like the Roma are a stateless nation and we do not need a state. Further, Jews have remained present in Palestine and have peacefully coexisted with them, there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t be represented under a Palestinian state. Palestinians themselves, were decedents of the Ancient Israelites who converted to Islam. Aggression between the two groups only started when a genocidal settler colony began using our name, the Jewish People, to justify their actions.

Yes, the genocide is a recent thing considering the Palestinian population has been steadily growing, while their culture was not in any danger of being wiped out.

lmao, Nakba AND colonialism denial. Excellent.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, they’re out to get you right after they’ve finished eating their newborn babies. WTF are you smoking,

More colonialism denial.

Yeah, it’s all just colonialism denial. You are a genocidal colonialism supporter.

Ok but you don’t reject the Israeli State. Which was founded on a genocide. This is like saying you’re anti-genocide but you support the US’s right to exist.

Ah, OK, so you’re just refuting the idea that Israelites have lived there, in that very same region, for thousands of years, for which we have archaeological and historical data? All of that is a hoax? Like, an Egyptian dude was going “LOL, let’s write those guys in, hilarity will ensue 3000 years later”?

Yes, their descendants are called Palestinians today. This also has nothing to do with the fact that the current conflict is 100 years old and not 1000 or thousands.

Wow, maybe if you elaborated on what you meant, like I asked, then I’d understand what you meant better? Weird how communication works, eh?

I don’t know how much clearer I can make it: this “conflict” is a hundred years old and you are distorting history to support colonialism. The “Israelis” are settlers, the Palestinians are the native population, descended in part from the people “Israelis” claim falsely to be the continuation of.

The Palestinian people are a people who have lived in that region for hundreds of years, just because they were previously occupied by Ottomans doesn’t mean there’s no material basis for the nation of Palestine being present in the region.

So, exactly like Israelites? Good to see that you actually agree with them having a right to a nation state!

The Jews like the Roma are a stateless nation

1. Yeah, just like Palestinians were, up until around 1947. 1918 if you count Mandatory Palestine.

Further, Jews have remained present in Palestine and have peacefully coexisted with them, there’s no reason to believe they wouldn’t be represented under a Palestinian state

Well, if you ignore all historical data that has very clearly shown Jews and Israelites being persecuted in the region, which was the region for them leaving it in large enough numbers to be considered a stateless nation like the Roma - yeah, then you’re absolutely correct.

Aggression between the two groups only started when a genocidal settler colony began using our name, the Jewish People, to justify their actions.

Again, you’d be correct if you ignore the entirety of the history of the region. The persecution of Israelites started around 700 BCE, mate.

So, it’s not about “Israelis vs Palestinians”, or wider, “Israelis vs Arabs”. It’s just literally about the establishment of Israel as a nation? That’s it?

Explain to me, how are you not a proponent of genocide if you want to eliminate a nation?

Explain to me, how are you not a proponent of genocide if you want to eliminate a nation?

Telling that you can’t separate a nation that was founded as a settler colony less than 80 years ago from its entire population.

So, it’s not about “Israelis vs Palestinians”, or wider, “Israelis vs Arabs”. It’s just literally about the establishment of Israel as a nation? That’s it?

It’s about colonialism, which is exactly “Israelis” (colonizers) vs. Palestinians (the native people). Again, people like Ben Gurion and Herzl were extremely open about this.

Ok but you don’t reject the Israeli State. Which was founded on a genocide

I disagree here.

Palestinians and Israelites lived in the region for - literally - thousands of years, but neither had a nation. The exact same resolution that established Israel, also established Palestine, and that happened after the “civil war” between them. It wasn’t genocide, it was a ham-fisted attempt at stopping a genocide, because both parties wanted to eliminate the other.

Do I agree to all Israel’s policies, including the occupation of West Bank and Gaza? Absolutely not. Do I agree that the way these two nations were established was correct? Absolutely not.

But this is what they got, and they need to learn to live with it. Just like Qatar did. Or Yemen. Or Saudi Arabia, the Emirates, and Jordan, etc. They were all established by the colonial powers after the fall of the Ottoman Empire, they were all created by moronic Europeans who divided the land based off of oil reserves, and not history, culture, or religion. But - somehow - you don’t see Qatar fighting Bahrain non stop, or Emirates bombing the Saudis.

This is like saying you’re anti-genocide but you support the US’s right to exist.

I’m against going “ooh, but historically X should be Y”. What’s the historical state you want to turn back the borders to? Should Poland stop existing because we’re turning back time to the 18th century? Are we going back to 19th century, where Ukraine was under the russian boot? What is the “correct” state of the world’s borders, in your opinion?

Where did I deny colonialism? I acknowledge the fact that Israel is occupying (and colonising) the West Bank and Gaza, I firmly believe they should be pushed out and forced to pay reparations for the decades of stealing land and killing Palestinians.

Is this “colonialism denial” to you?

Yeah, it’s all just colonialism denial. You are a genocidal colonialism supporter. No amount of calling “Israelis” “Israelites” to pretend they’re native to the region and not colonizers will make it true.

Israelis vs Israelites might come from language barrier. English is not my native language.

But saying they’re not native to the region when we have archaeological and historical evidence of them being there over 3000 years ago is either extreme ignorance, or fundamentalist extremism.

Telling that you can’t separate a nation that was founded as a settler colony less than 80 years ago from its entire population.

Why do you consider Israel to be the settler colony, and not Palestine of both peoples were in the exact same situation 80 years ago? Both were living in the region (and spread out all around the world, with a higher percentage of Israelis than Palestinians “roaming”) for thousands of years, both nations were established at the exact same time with the exact same resolution. How is only one of them a “settler colony”?

It’s about colonialism, which is exactly “Israelis” (colonizers) vs. Palestinians (the native people)

Again, this is only true if you either ignore all the archaeological and historical evidence we have, or are a fundamentalist extremist who’s calling for a genocide. Which are you?

colonialism is genocidal.

That’s not how words work, mate.

Where did I deny colonialism? I acknowledge the fact that Israel is occupying (and colonising) the West Bank and Gaza, I firmly believe they should be pushed out and forced to pay reparations for the decades of stealing land and killing Palestinians.

You literally deny colonialism in the sentence after asking where you deny it. “Israel” is a settler colony in its entirety. Once again, Ben Gurion, who committed the Nakba, was very clear about this. So was Herzl, the main forefather of the “Israeli” state.

Israelis vs Israelites might come from language barrier. English is not my native language.

But saying they’re not native to the region when we have archaeological and historical evidence of them being there over 3000 years ago is either extreme ignorance, or fundamentalist extremism.

“Israelis” are the modern day settlers. “Israelites” are the ancient people. “Israelis” are not native to the region. They are mainly europeans, as well as Arab Jews from elsewhere in West Asian and North Africa. Palestinians are native to the region and are descendants of the Israelites who never left.

I really don’t need some kkkrakkker ass fucking Finn to lecture me about my own people’s history just so they can perpetrate the antisemitic correlation of my people to a fucking genocide. So back to Sieg Heiling the statue of Simo The Jew Slayer erected in your town plaza because your people never forgave the Soviets for beating them and their nazi allies in the Second World War.

“Israel” is a colony because it was founded by European settlers who OPENLY proclaimed that fact. They gladly and openly bragged that they were displacing and massacring the native Palestinians. All your bullshit about “Israelis” “roaming” is historical revisionism meant to justify the Nakba, which is a genocide.

Settler colonialism requires the displacement and elimination of at least the vast majority of the native population to succeed, it is genocidal by nature. You are a genocide supporter and a genocide denier.

You’re a fundamentalist extremist and a hateful human. Be better.

It’s like you don’t even read my comments, just default to “wah, wah, wah, you’re a colonialism denier, wah, wah, wah!”

There’s no reason to continue this conversation in this context.

It’s like you don’t even read my comments, just default to “wah, wah, wah, you’re a colonialism denier, wah, wah, wah!”

I read your comments denying genocide, that’s why I reply by calling you a genocide denier. I have explained over and over, but you don’t believe colonialism is genocidal because you are a genocide denier. It seems you also don’t even believe colonialism is colonialism.

There’s no reason to continue this conversation in this context.

I agree, I’m not sure why I even bothered to reply to an obvious genocidal zionist for so long.

You’re a fundamentalist extremist and a hateful human. Be better.

Finnish genocide enjoyer lectures a Jewish man about how he’s hateful for objecting to his culture being used as a shield for colonialism. Almost reads like parody.

You’re the kind of person who calls another “Finnish” just because of the instance they’re on. You’re not interested in humanity, you’re only interested in labels. It’s sad and evil.

Oh, my apologies. It’s totally better if you’re a different type of gentile genocide enjoyer lecturing a Jewish man about his own people. /s

Again: you’re not reading what I’m writing, you’re only seeing “he’s not 100% agreeing with me, therefore he’s a Nazi Zionist colonialist genocide proponent”.

It’s pathetic, really.

Sounds like the worst thing you could do, better to limit these kinds of defederation wars instead of escalating them even further.

The users here have even less critical thinking ability than Reddit, and I didn’t think that were possible. More than one thing can be bad at the same time, but apparently you have to pick teams here and then call for death to the other team. Lemmy is a fucking parody now.

Excuse me if I’m not concerned with a zionist’s opinion

“You’re a Nazi.”

“You’re a Nazi.”

“You’re a Nazi.”

“Kill all Nazis.”

Maybe if you stopped calling everyone you disagreed with a Nazi they wouldn’t take offense when you advocate murdering them.

07

In Germany, disapproving of Israel is considered an unacceptably nuanced take on whether the holocaust was bad. That’s literally the legislative basis that feddit’s moderation is required to comply with. Germany, through it’s anti-Nazi and anti-genocide-denial policies, trapped its people in a situation where they are unable to condemn another genocide.

Authoritarian draconic standards are bullshit. Nuance can be used to overdamp the response to wrongdoing, but its absence can also leave responses underdamped, and assholes can selectively overdamp and underdamp responses in specific categories to serve their own interests. (A clear example is how wind turbines need to go through a lot of red tape to address the concerns of everyone in a wide area while meat industry farms can poison people without issue).

If we want justice, we have to be able to fight against these assholes in both directions - reducing the damping of overdamped systems to allow us to fight genocide effectively even when it doesn’t serve the interests of the powerful, while also increasing the damping of underdamped systems to prevent the powerful from oppressing people using fighting genocide as an excuse.

So yes, we do need nuanced takes on “whether genocide is bad”, sometimes. Other times these “nuanced takes” are indeed ploys to hold back appropriate responses. Which is which is going to depend on the specific situation.

In this case, feddit is complying with German law and policy to go to bat for Zionism, so their “nuance” can get fucked.

The bolsheviks never targeted the cultural Cossack people, nomadic Steppe horse riders, but instead “Cossacks,” Tsarist troops that ran down peasants on horseback. They had the same name because the Tsar relied heavily on recruiting the Cossack people, but it wasn’t a random decision to commit genocide like you’re framing. That’s why your own link says information on the subject is highly blurred and contested:

Several scholars have categorised this as a form of genocide,[6][7][8][9][10] whilst other historians have highly disputed this classification due to the contentious figures involved, which range from “a few thousand to incredible claims of hundreds of thousands”.[11][12][13]

Lenin didn’t order the deaths of random people. Lenin led a revolution, one which overturned the incredibly brutal Tsarist system. Lenin did not unilaterally impose socialism, it was something fought for by the working classes. The White Army (the Tsarist forces), the fourteen capitalist nations that invaded Russia during its revolution, and the former ruling classes were all fought by the revolutionary peoples led by Lenin. In eliminating Tsarism, and establishing socialism, the transition from pure squalor resulted in doubling of life expectancy, tripling of literacy rates to 99.9%, free and high quality healthcare and education for all, the right to a job, certified home ownership, and much more.

Mark Twain spoke this of the French Revolution:

THERE were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.

The Russian Revolution was much the same. Hundreds of millions of lives were uplifted and saved by it. That is why Lenin is remembered as a hero even in post-socialist Russia.

I was against banning the communities, but the second link doesn’t feel like it deserved to be banned. Many examples brought up in the vote were comments that were looking for a fight, using aggressive language.

It’s also pretty telling that the vote was about banning access to communities, and after it finished, they banned the whole instance. I guess it is important to the community (or the folks that are paying to support the instance), that everyone is on the same page on this issue.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/gruesome-story-hannah-duston-american-colonist-whose-slaying-indians-made-her-folk-hero-180968721/

please note the similarities to pissrahelli hasbara and indigenous resistance in palestine.

Lemmy.ml has a lot of communists, and dbzer0 is mainly anarchists with some communists as well. We have a lot more in common with each other than with feddit.org, which as we can see has a bad history with Zionism at the admin level. It’s entirely consistent to defederate feddit.org, which dbzer0 voted for as an instance, while remaining federated with Lemmy.ml.

Easy: unjust, unfair, dumb.

Nazis easily pretend to be the nice people following the rules and if you get angry you’re the bad one. Don’t be nice to Nazis. Yell at them, insult them, punch them. Enforcing laws to protect oppressors is nothing more than protecting oppressors. “The only legitimate violence is state violence” and all that propaganda.

The Nazis are the ones breaking the “be nice” rule in the first place, they just do it while speaking nicely, they talk about enforcing rules and protecting order, but somehow they always dodge the question of how many people their order is killing. That’s not being nice. The rule is only there to forbid you for fighting back.

If you think that the “be nice” rule should punish calls to take down Israel or contest german support for the genocide, but not punish that same support for the genocide because it’s nice and polite… You’re just protecting the genocide. It doesn’t matter if anti-genocide comments are not nice enough for you - they shouldn’t have to be nice. Especially not when the German government literally makes it illegal to denounce Israel, even nicely.

It’s sad to see dbzer0 slowly creeping towards authoritarianism. This is exactly the kind of reason I couoldn’t entertain making it my primary instance unfortunately.

Nah, it was decided with a vote. The majority in that server wanted Feddit blocked and that’s what came.

Ah yes because nothing authoritarian was ever implemented through a vote…

Personally, I voted against on my db0 account, the top voted comments explain pretty thoroughly why.

Authoritarian is a basically meaningless word already but “people voting for something I don’t like” is an especially idiotic way to define it.

Voting to block a domain and having that domain blocked isn’t comparable to electing an authoritarian leader. Dbzer0 can choose who to and not to federate with. Users who don’t like that move to another instance easily.

In the thread I linked the thread op and serval others were complaining about DM harrassment. That was happening immidiately after emopunker decided to post the names of three upvoters of the defederation thread in meanwhileongrad, while the vote was still happening. . You may not be seeing anything but i think the problem is between your keyboard and your chair

Yet another example of why the abstrct concept of “authoritarianism” is useless. In this case, the people of dbzer0 decided democratically to wield their authority to defederate from an instance with an explicit Zionist problem. It isn’t the defederation that’s the problem in the abstract, or the authority, it’s the fact that this authority was used against Zionists.

Dbzer0 civility rules aim to protect marginalized people from harassment. feddit.org’s are being deployed to protect Zionism from criticism while tone-policing Palestinians and their allies. These aren’t the same thing just because they both use the word ‘civility.’

feddit isn’t exactly enforcing civility neutrally. They’re silencing anti-Zionism while treating Zionist positions as the default that deserves civil engagement. That’s a political choice with the fig leaf of ‘just following orders the law’, hardly ‘basic logic’. But thanks for explaining to a silly girl like me silly-liberator

Basing this on a temporal chain of events alone is weak. I’ll give you, that there might be a connection: names listed -> harassment started.

That does not mean that Emopunker is responsible though. Could have been another user. Could have been you for all I know. Could also have happened for other reasons. And, there is still the possibility that it might have no connection to this at all.

You’ll need to provide some stronger evidence, otherwise I’ll take this as baseless accusations and, possibly, a defamation attempt.

Feel free to deliver, especially since you seem to be observing this. I’d like to know whether an admin on the instance I am using is harassing people.

Voting to block a domain and having that domain blocked isn’t comparable to electing an authoritarian leader.

Nobody has said that? What it does is remove the choice from each individual, which is authoritarian, even if done via majority vote. There was nothing stopping those who wanted the domain blocked to do that themselves.

They posted to the snark comm, the harassment follows. Just because there’s no proof they were personally sending the messages doesn’t absolve them of responsibility for their actions.

if anything the defamation was coming from emopunker, declaring people upvoting the thread about their instance being zionist as ‘the same person’ to a snark comm was pretty clearly implying a call to action for someone

“people voting for something I don’t like” is an especially idiotic way to define it.

You’re right, that would be idiotic. Good thing I didn’t define authoritarian that way, and no, it is not a meaningless word, you can (in fact) look it up in a dictionary which describes the meaning fairly well.

or the authority

Authority is exactly the problem. Who would’ve thought that somebody with an account on an anarchist instance has problems with other people telling them what they can and can’t do?

Shocking, I know.

Its funny… regardless if its the Web of old, IRC channels, a real life small gardening commune (Kleingartenverein) or now here on the Fediverse - there will always be petty wars to be fought. Perhaps its part of the “human experience”, who knows…

Its funny… regardless if its the Web of old, IRC channels, a real life small gardening commune (Kleingartenverein) or now here on the Fediverse - there will always be petty wars to be fought. Perhaps its part of the “human experience”, who knows…

You’re arguing against the people wielding their power againdt Zionists and in favor of Zionists being able to speak freely.

I just don’t see it as authoritarian. Wasn’t on a whim, it was voted, and the majority voted to defederate. Does it remove user choice, sure I guess., but so does any form of moderation.

The linked definition doesn’t match with you calling the vote/outcome authoritarian.

Authoritarian/authoritarianisn is so widely defined that literally every country, organisation and movement fits it by necessity in class society

Authoritarian is a pejorative used by idiots to avoid grappling with the reality of one class necessarily suppressing another in class society.

So all moderation is wrong? Also you seem to very clearly not understand what anarchism is beyond the infantile “tyranny of bedtime” surface.

Wow, is it really so hard to believe that I’m, you know, saying what I think?

.world happened to be my first fediverse account, dbzer0 came later. I’ve lots at this point, exactly because of instance defederation, but the idea of what db0 was doing seemed particularly interesting, hence my disappointment.

In any case I’ve nothing more to add here.

Hope you get a nice weekend, ciao.

I don’t think it’s particularly interesting that anarchists defederated from Zionists.

I absolutely agree with you, in fact I even said somewhere else in these comments that some of the stuff Israel is doing is on the same level or worse than what happened in Nazi Germany.

However, you said it literally yourself, it’s not on the same scale (yet).

Also, if you read my original comment carefully, I’m personally not even agreeing with the way this issue is handled, in my opinion, go ahead, compare Israel to Nazis. My only goal was to show that no, feddit.org is not actually Zionist.

I’m not even arguing for the things you’re talking about, I’m just trying to bring some understanding. In literally none of the things I talked about, nor in what the feddit.org admins talked about, was there anything about keeping up unconditional support for Israel.

That is good and I did not know that.

any support of pissrael is zionism. Everyone knows what pissrael stands for, what it does, this is like talking about “unconditional support for nazi germany” in 1943. No amount of conditions is gonna make support for a genocidal apartheid settler colony appropriate.

Death to Pissrael, Death to the united Schutzstaffeln of ameriKKKa, Death to genocidesmany, Death to the Nazi-American Treatler Organisation, Long live the global south and the proletariat.

There is plenty of proletariat within the USA, Germany and Israel. Should they live long or die?

If you cannot differentiate the German government from me or the people of Germany, then I can’t help you. “Full” is something entirely different. I hate what my government is doing.

you’re only interested in labels
You’re a fundamentalist extremist and a hateful human. Be better.

{🤣|❓❓❓}

I don’t know which part confuses you?

The countries you wish death for are roughly 90% proletariat. How can you want death for the one, but not the other?

Nobody removed your choice to change servers

It’s kind of a weird argument considering lemmy.world has also blocked other instances, and (correct me if I’m wrong) without a vote on it.

90% proletariat

as someone who has to live in germany: X

but regardless, I wish death on germany and a long life for the proletariat.

this isn’t confusing unless you’re some nationalist that confuses the administrative entity for it’s population.

This is vulgar class reductionism. The US and Germany are both imperialist countries that bribe their proletarians with a share of the spoils of international plunder. Israel is a genocidal settler-colony that serves as a forward base for imperialist countries in West Asia. Not only is this vulgar class reductionism, but it’s intentional misinterpretation. Saying “death to xyz country” means elimination of the state and the system, not genocide on the people of said country.

there was no reason for Germans to fear Jewish people, as they were just normal people.

Not even trying to hide your naked bigotry against Palestinians.

Really? Because elsewhere you’re blaming Hamas for starting it

if anything the defamation was coming from emopunker, declaring people upvoting the thread […] as ‘the same person’

Fair point.

I am on the fence about the ‘snark comm’ ordeal. I think such communities are – to some degree – meaningful for a critical discourse. Imo, one should be allowed to point out and criticise users, communities, whole instances.

Then again, this should not make someone a target for harassment.

From my pov, it’s a question of balancing interests here: civilised criticism is important and should be allowed. Especially in such public spaces. Denying this due to a hazard of making them a target for people who see this as a ‘call to action’ would suffocate such discussions completely. So I’d address the harassers and sanction them, instead of people who merely point things out they find suspicious, as in this case.

So unless Emopunker directly incited the harassment or did it themselves, I’d lean towards: “yeah, somewhat uncool to throw such accusations in the room without further proof, but that doesn’t make them the culprit”.

Both-sidesing a genocide. You’re a monster

Explain to me, how are you not a proponent of genocide if you want to eliminate a nation?

So anyone who supported the end of Rhodesia or apartheid South Africa was pro genocide.

TIL that containing a zionist infestation is a petty war.

You sure love defending it though

Oh look, now you’re straight up lying to apologize for genocide.

You are defending genocide; you are a genocide defender.

I firmly believe they should be pushed out and forced to pay reparations for the decades of stealing land and killing Palestinians.

No you don’t. You believe it would be nice if Israel volunteered to do that willingly, but that anybody trying to force them should be condemned.

Hey look, it’s Satre’s anti semite.

Go back to reddit

It’s pathetic, really.

Oh my God, you absolute loser

I want it to be stopped by almost any means necessary

Lol. “Almost”. Aka, you condemn all groups actually resisting it.

Whataboutism

“Lenin was bad, therefore it’s ok to support genocide in Palestine”

Typical fucking reddit take

WTF even is this comment? I said what I said.

Oh! That’s a great example!

Show me on the map which countries have partitioned taken over Germany’s lands after WW2!

Which countries have partitioned and taken over the land of Rhodesia and South Africa? You can show me on the map.

Dude, just do not defend mass murder. That does not make you a good person. End of discussion.

I’m not defending mass murder, I’m defending the right of the working classes of Russia to overthrow the brutally violent Tsarist regime, and their right to defend the new socialist system they created. I’m defending the revolutionary leader that helped organize and facilitate that progressive movement that freed the working classes of Russia from conditions so brutal they died at an average age of 33, in wooden shack houses with minimal heating, all while the Tsar and capitalists made vast quantities of money and colonized the surrounding areas.

You’re batting for the Tsar.

The funniest part is how many people have self identified as block-me in the replies to this post.

You are indeed correct. Lemmy.world is less democratic than dbzer0.

Curiously that’s the same sentiment the Zionist German left espouses: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Germans_(political_current)

Which countries have partitioned and taken over the land of Rhodesia

Zimbabwe.

and South Africa?

Post-apartheid South Africa.

You can show me on the map.

A map highlighting the two countries mentioned above.

If you count fighting with righteous fury in a little niche corner of the Fediverse which in itself is also a pretty tiny niche corner of the net everything other than a petty war… well, i guess everybody needs a hobby.

You didn’t define authoritarianism or specifically say how it is so in this case, leaving us to guess and you to say we guessed wrong.

Except that the “Zionist infestation” is a fictional construct in this case. db0 is fighting ghosts.

What’s wrong with calling Hamas terrorists? They have randomly but deliberately killed innocent people. How else would you describe that?

• You, calling the resistance to zionism “terrorists”.

Those who deliberately kill innocent people lose the right to be considered the resistance. They should kill the fucking IDF. But not kids at a music festival or random civilians.

Sure.

Israel’s is though. Because they’re Zionazis.

All violence in a settler colony, including the violence perpetrated by and against the colonizers, is the fault of the colonizers.

They should kill the fucking IDF. But not kids at a music festival or random civilians.

You’re right, they should be given advanced military technology and intelligence data to make sure they can more efficiently kill only soldiers. If we’re wishing for things, I wish every “Israeli” genocide supporter would just disappear without the resistance having to do anything.